[00:00:00] [Music]

[00:00:04] you are listening to the what a Word

[00:00:07] podcast an interview style podcast where

[00:00:10] guests bring their unique experiences

[00:00:12] and insight on culture life’s challenges

[00:00:16] and Faith each episode is seasoned with

[00:00:19] Words which will inspire and encourage

[00:00:22] now here is your host Ryan Sharp

[00:00:26] thank you

[00:00:30] [Music]

[00:00:35] welcome to the water Word podcast

[00:00:38] um honored as always

[00:00:40] um to be in this space uh sharing light

[00:00:42] on culture uh Faith life challenges uh

[00:00:47] each week this interview style podcast

[00:00:50] uh brings a variety of guests from

[00:00:52] different walks of life and um I’m

[00:00:55] honored today to have a good friend of

[00:00:58] mine uh Sean Farrow we met a number of

[00:01:01] years ago at uh trial advocacy Clinic uh

[00:01:07] very intensive he’s an attorney

[00:01:09] currently an associate and a very a

[00:01:12] prestigious firm and allowed to get more

[00:01:14] into that but we met when we were both

[00:01:17] public defenders and we connected in a

[00:01:21] number of ways and we kept in touch and

[00:01:23] I’m honored to have him on the podcast

[00:01:25] and before we get into it though there’s

[00:01:28] something that came across my feed when

[00:01:31] I was on social media and I’m hoping it

[00:01:33] will bring some encouragement to someone

[00:01:36] uh the author of the post asked the

[00:01:39] question when was the last time you sat

[00:01:42] and gave yourself credit for how much

[00:01:44] you’ve grown and how far you’ve come

[00:01:47] when was the last time you celebrated a

[00:01:50] relatively small win just because when

[00:01:54] was the last time you just sat down and

[00:01:56] said out loud I’m really really proud of

[00:02:00] myself

[00:02:00] and that gave me a lot of encouragement

[00:02:04] because as I think about my own Journey

[00:02:08] there are a lot of things I have to

[00:02:10] celebrate and I I I’ll say to you if

[00:02:13] wherever you are if you are watching on

[00:02:15] YouTube if you’re listening uh celebrate

[00:02:18] those small wins and if if if they don’t

[00:02:21] come to mind readily I’m celebrating on

[00:02:24] your behalf keep it going keep up the

[00:02:27] good work don’t give up celebrate those

[00:02:30] small wins and I want to celebrate

[00:02:32] the wings of my brother as well who

[00:02:35] joins me so much has happened since we

[00:02:37] last met

[00:02:38] um Sean welcome to the podcast glad to

[00:02:41] have you man thank you brother thank you

[00:02:43] for having me

[00:02:46] you know on a Sunday too but it’s well

[00:02:50] worth it I’m happy to be here and I’m

[00:02:51] honored to be here thank you brother

[00:02:53] welcome man welcome what do you have to

[00:02:55] say about small wins man you and I are

[00:02:58] in a very demanding field and uh we’re

[00:03:01] going to unpack a lot of what it means

[00:03:04] to be uh public defenders at Advocates

[00:03:08] Etc but talk about small wins

[00:03:11] yeah man I I’m glad you brought that up

[00:03:14] and that that post in you speaking about

[00:03:17] it really just resonated with me because

[00:03:19] the beginning of my career I I struggled

[00:03:22] with that I struggled with trying to

[00:03:25] understand how to celebrate myself how

[00:03:27] to acknowledge my own value my own worth

[00:03:30] and I thought that I had to win the big

[00:03:33] case right off the bat I thought I had

[00:03:35] to be just you know the lawyer you saw

[00:03:38] on TV right away and not realizing that

[00:03:42] there’s a steep learning curve and if

[00:03:44] you don’t celebrate the small wins it

[00:03:47] becomes really really tough right

[00:03:48] because you can get down on yourself and

[00:03:50] you bring negative thoughts negative

[00:03:51] energy negative emotions to yourself and

[00:03:54] that can make something that’s already

[00:03:55] challenging that much more so in

[00:03:58] celebrating the small wins in the last

[00:04:00] few years especially with covet giving

[00:04:02] me time to thank and take care of mental

[00:04:04] health

[00:04:05] um

[00:04:06] I realized that we must to your point

[00:04:08] celebrate the small wins in order to

[00:04:10] just continue to build ourselves up

[00:04:12] all right and build up the people next

[00:04:14] to us so for me I started celebrating

[00:04:17] the small wins wherever and whenever I

[00:04:20] can find them so you know this past week

[00:04:23] we got a fortunate uh guilty verdict on

[00:04:26] one of our trial cases with the partners

[00:04:27] here but what did the partners do well

[00:04:31] those were some of the smaller victories

[00:04:33] in terms of just preparation was

[00:04:35] incredible

[00:04:36] that cross-examination was fantastic

[00:04:38] some Nation opening just the way they

[00:04:41] put the whole child together was truly

[00:04:43] you know impressive to watch those are

[00:04:45] small wins the fact that we as a small

[00:04:47] boutique Law Firm came together and we

[00:04:50] were working on this trial as a team

[00:04:52] that was a small win within itself

[00:04:55] um

[00:04:56] it’s little things like that that maybe

[00:04:59] don’t make it onto the scoreboard but

[00:05:02] nonetheless do add value do add up at

[00:05:06] the end of the day and if you look back

[00:05:07] and say you know what it was worth it

[00:05:10] here was my value here’s where I

[00:05:12] contributed it and it’s something that

[00:05:14] you really can be proud of because we’re

[00:05:16] not always going to get the W we’re not

[00:05:18] always going to have this breakthrough

[00:05:21] moment right we’re not going to have

[00:05:22] this this this perfect sound bite but

[00:05:25] when you can celebrate the small wins

[00:05:27] you can see how you are growing you can

[00:05:30] see how you are advancing you can see

[00:05:32] how you are sharpening your tools it’s

[00:05:34] how every day you’re just getting better

[00:05:36] and

[00:05:38] I guess I would finish up by saying this

[00:05:40] when you when you look back at your life

[00:05:43] and you you put in the work and the time

[00:05:45] you can really sit back and be proud of

[00:05:49] all the things because you kept going in

[00:05:51] the face of adversity you kept going and

[00:05:54] those small victories are what are going

[00:05:56] to be I guess your your benchmarks for

[00:05:58] which you can check yourself and so I I

[00:06:01] look at it for every opportunity in this

[00:06:03] past week I had a few and so I don’t

[00:06:06] take that lightly I take that into the

[00:06:08] next week and we keep moving forward

[00:06:09] [Applause]

[00:06:11] [Music]

[00:06:20] one week uh very intensive up in Albany

[00:06:24] um

[00:06:25] man okay so for starters uh you and I

[00:06:29] were both public defenders at that time

[00:06:31] there are a lot of misconceptions about

[00:06:34] the work we do as public defenders and

[00:06:37] uh I learned something that weekend and

[00:06:39] you and I have discussed this before

[00:06:41] there are not many of us

[00:06:44] as public defenders

[00:06:47] when I learned the numbers of people of

[00:06:50] color who actually serve

[00:06:54] underrepresented people so to speak are

[00:06:57] people who are

[00:06:58] unable to afford the services who have

[00:07:02] been our constitution affords them the

[00:07:05] right to counsel but I honestly thought

[00:07:10] um individuals who desire to serve in

[00:07:12] public interest had an easy access to

[00:07:16] that field but not so and I’m sure you

[00:07:18] can unpack that for listeners and

[00:07:20] viewers

[00:07:21] yeah being a public defender

[00:07:24] especially as a person of color it was

[00:07:26] the most rewarding job that I’ve ever

[00:07:30] had but also the most

[00:07:32] challenging job that I’ve ever had and

[00:07:35] you know

[00:07:38] it’s not that I’m at a loss towards I

[00:07:40] just want to make sure that I articulate

[00:07:43] exactly what it meant to be a public

[00:07:45] defender in general but more

[00:07:46] specifically as a man of color

[00:07:48] representing mostly other men of color

[00:07:51] and

[00:07:54] every day you walked into court every

[00:07:58] day you got a phone call from someone

[00:08:00] who genuinely needed your help

[00:08:04] and to be able to be there for them you

[00:08:08] can’t put a price on that

[00:08:09] these are people that they could be your

[00:08:12] brother your cousin your father you know

[00:08:14] there was just a special bond a special

[00:08:17] connection with so many of those clients

[00:08:19] but at the same time

[00:08:21] this system is what the system is and so

[00:08:24] you’re dealing with just ridiculously

[00:08:26] high case loads on a resource offices

[00:08:30] and so you’re not surprised when you

[00:08:33] don’t see other people of color because

[00:08:35] it’s a hard job it’s a thankless job you

[00:08:39] ain’t gonna get paid very well

[00:08:41] oftentimes and I can speak to my

[00:08:44] experience but I’ve heard my brothers

[00:08:45] and sisters in the field

[00:08:47] from New York to New Orleans away West

[00:08:50] like we’re not necessarily valued in our

[00:08:54] office we’re not appreciated in our

[00:08:55] office

[00:08:56] so you’re kind of walking into this cold

[00:08:59] environment within your own office and

[00:09:02] then when you get to court you’re kind

[00:09:04] of walking them into enemy territory

[00:09:07] so it’s a very unwelcoming very

[00:09:09] uninviting place for us to be and

[00:09:13] knowing that many of us have navigated

[00:09:15] these

[00:09:17] treacherous Waters that are life

[00:09:19] especially as a person of color and then

[00:09:21] we’ve also navigated these landmines

[00:09:23] that are living in the white world and

[00:09:25] being educated in the white spaces it

[00:09:28] becomes exhausting and tiring when

[00:09:31] you’re doing that day in and day out now

[00:09:33] as a public defender and again nobody’s

[00:09:37] saying thanks hell half the time your

[00:09:39] clients aren’t saying thanks and you can

[00:09:41] kind of understand why I shouldn’t stuff

[00:09:43] is very difficult but

[00:09:45] it just it’s tough and I’m and I’m not

[00:09:49] shocked whenever I see the low numbers

[00:09:51] of representation from the people of

[00:09:52] color it kind of makes sense

[00:09:55] there is little to no incentive beyond

[00:10:00] your own desire to be in a space

[00:10:04] that’s just a reality I think that we

[00:10:06] all have to acknowledge and I think

[00:10:07] that’s a reality many of us do

[00:10:09] acknowledge but I will say and then

[00:10:11] going back to my first point that’s why

[00:10:12] I led with it it was worth it

[00:10:15] it was worth it every single day I I did

[00:10:19] not hesitate to get up one day I did not

[00:10:22] hesitate to go to sleep and I know many

[00:10:24] of my colleagues especially my

[00:10:25] colleagues of colors uh that’s how they

[00:10:28] felt too that no matter what the odds

[00:10:31] were against us no matter how many

[00:10:32] hurdles were in our place or in our

[00:10:34] clients place

[00:10:36] it was worth it knowing that we are

[00:10:38] helping someone that looks like us

[00:10:42] that was powerful that resonated with us

[00:10:45] that motivated us and so I think at the

[00:10:48] same time we’re very lucky and very

[00:10:50] fortunate to have had the opportunity to

[00:10:53] be there with so many of our people

[00:10:56] low down I love that

[00:10:59] Sean I’m gonna ask you to address some

[00:11:01] of the myths I’m sorry to keep taking

[00:11:03] you back to what it was like but some of

[00:11:06] the midst of um public defenders

[00:11:10] um and I I guess I could touch on maybe

[00:11:12] three and actually to cover those but

[00:11:15] one being that

[00:11:17] um we’re not re-lawyers

[00:11:20] that that pissed me off you know I keep

[00:11:24] it a buck you can start there that

[00:11:25] pissed me off especially as a person of

[00:11:27] color I remember so many times in my

[00:11:29] career as a public defender

[00:11:31] uh clients whether they be white or

[00:11:34] black would often time ask for you know

[00:11:36] white Jewish lawyer and it just kind of

[00:11:39] added to the myth or just re-stigmatized

[00:11:42] us as we’re not real lawyers

[00:11:44] I got a degree too

[00:11:46] I put that work into I took that bar too

[00:11:49] and I want some cases too I can go to

[00:11:52] toe-to-toe with anybody in that

[00:11:53] courtroom it doesn’t matter if you’re

[00:11:55] idly educated or you went to you know

[00:11:57] some local Law School

[00:11:59] it don’t matter when we enter that Court

[00:12:01] where we all equals and your skills are

[00:12:04] going to shine versus my skills and I

[00:12:06] tell you this it just drove me crazy to

[00:12:08] think that we’re not real lawyers some

[00:12:10] of the best lawyers are public defenders

[00:12:13] I

[00:12:15] I’m sorry there are some Joe public

[00:12:18] defenders

[00:12:19] two of my roommates are both doe public

[00:12:22] defenders and I would put them Toe to

[00:12:24] Toe with anybody that gets paid

[00:12:28] I get paid right now I just left the

[00:12:29] legally job just a few months ago I get

[00:12:31] paid right now I will put them

[00:12:32] toe-to-toe with me because they’re that

[00:12:35] good

[00:12:36] what people have to understand is law is

[00:12:38] no different than any other field some

[00:12:41] people are very good at their job some

[00:12:44] people are you know mediocre some people

[00:12:46] are bad

[00:12:47] you just hope that the person you get is

[00:12:50] just really good and just because you

[00:12:53] pay someone a bunch of money doesn’t

[00:12:55] mean they’re actually good at that job

[00:12:58] doesn’t mean anything the best lawyers

[00:13:01] or you’ll know who they are because

[00:13:03] you’re gonna hear their name before you

[00:13:04] ever see them you’re gonna have no

[00:13:06] questions no concerns the judge is going

[00:13:08] to know opposing counts is going to know

[00:13:10] the court office isn’t going to know

[00:13:12] right everybody knows who’s a good

[00:13:14] lawyer so it’s just the idea that just

[00:13:16] because you have a public defender that

[00:13:18] you don’t have perhaps one of the best

[00:13:20] attorneys in the game

[00:13:22] that’s a common misconception I think a

[00:13:25] lot of people end up setting themselves

[00:13:26] up for failure by trying to go after

[00:13:28] lawyers who are just not really equipped

[00:13:31] to handle the job and they’re not

[00:13:33] quality so yeah that that has always

[00:13:35] rubbed me the wrong way public defenders

[00:13:38] more often than not they’re very good

[00:13:40] and what makes them even better is that

[00:13:43] they’re not motivated by anything other

[00:13:45] than the fact that they care I think

[00:13:48] that’s a powerful tool within itself so

[00:13:50] you have people that are talented and

[00:13:53] they care

[00:13:54] yeah I think you got a good recipe right

[00:13:56] there for success

[00:13:57] oh powerful man powerful the other night

[00:14:00] um

[00:14:01] we are pleading people out because we

[00:14:03] have high case volumes

[00:14:08] all right I’m gonna take I’m gonna take

[00:14:11] a moment on that one because

[00:14:15] there is some Merit to that myth

[00:14:20] there are some attorneys that are just

[00:14:24] overworked do have higher case load and

[00:14:27] for those reasons we’ll plead people out

[00:14:29] I can announce that but here’s one

[00:14:33] caveat that we must make absolutely

[00:14:36] clear

[00:14:38] that’s not the main reason

[00:14:41] if we’re talking about most cases

[00:14:43] anywhere from 95 to 98 of cases across

[00:14:47] the country in any given space are

[00:14:49] pleading out

[00:14:51] of that 95 to 98 percent

[00:14:54] 95 to 98 of that

[00:14:57] is because of the system

[00:14:59] because

[00:15:01] when you have a case you have to deal

[00:15:05] with the fact that there’s a mountain of

[00:15:06] evidence

[00:15:08] the fact that they will overcharge you

[00:15:10] they being a prosecutor so they force

[00:15:12] you to take a plea in that sense the

[00:15:14] fact that they scare you with the number

[00:15:16] of years you could face even for low

[00:15:18] level stuff

[00:15:19] the fact that police officers can lie

[00:15:22] and get away with it with impunity

[00:15:25] the fact that judges can be against you

[00:15:27] and keep certain evidence out and listen

[00:15:30] I understand we have an appeal process

[00:15:31] but you’ll be waiting all day for the

[00:15:33] appeal so the idea that the system is

[00:15:37] such that

[00:15:38] you have to plea

[00:15:41] in the most ironic sense ever in order

[00:15:45] to spend less time possible Behind Bars

[00:15:50] you have to admit it even if you didn’t

[00:15:52] do nothing wrong you have to admit it to

[00:15:54] get less time

[00:15:57] the system is designed so that people

[00:16:00] plead out not because public defenders

[00:16:03] are just tired and they just like they

[00:16:05] don’t care about you they don’t care

[00:16:06] about your case so let’s tweet it out no

[00:16:08] they

[00:16:10] the reality is and 99 like to keep

[00:16:14] throwing out numbers 99 of public

[00:16:15] defenders would try every case if they

[00:16:17] could

[00:16:18] if they had the bandwidth that they had

[00:16:20] the energy if they had the same

[00:16:21] resources that the prosecutor had they

[00:16:24] would try every case they want to we all

[00:16:27] want to try those cases we can’t

[00:16:30] and who am I to sit there and advise a

[00:16:35] client to go to trial and risk their

[00:16:38] life and risk more time in jail if we

[00:16:41] lose

[00:16:42] which we lose most of the time even when

[00:16:44] the facts are on our side

[00:16:47] how can I advise them to take that risk

[00:16:50] when if they plead out maybe they’re

[00:16:53] home in a year versus five maybe they

[00:16:55] don’t go to jail at all instead of going

[00:16:56] to jail for two years

[00:16:59] my life

[00:17:02] I don’t go home with them every night I

[00:17:04] don’t raise their kids I’m not in that

[00:17:06] community so how can I tell them nah you

[00:17:09] got to take this risk

[00:17:11] by the way we got to deal with the cops

[00:17:14] and the cops are going to say X Y and Z

[00:17:15] against you by the way this judge oh he

[00:17:18] or she doesn’t just like me they don’t

[00:17:20] like defense they don’t like these cases

[00:17:23] oh that prosecutor yeah they’re not

[00:17:25] going to give you better plea deal

[00:17:26] because they don’t have to

[00:17:28] the odds are stacked against you my

[00:17:30] friend like I’m trying to put you in the

[00:17:33] best position moving forward

[00:17:36] and so it’s not because we want to

[00:17:38] please y’all it’s because oftentimes the

[00:17:41] environment is such that that is the

[00:17:44] best position for you

[00:17:46] and I have to think about as your lawyer

[00:17:49] you know just like any lawyer what is

[00:17:51] best for you not just today but tomorrow

[00:17:54] and next week and next year what is best

[00:17:56] for you what is best for your family

[00:17:58] and most of the time it’s taken a plea

[00:18:01] even if neither one of us want that

[00:18:05] so yeah it’s it’s it’s not it’s not us

[00:18:08] it’s the system the system

[00:18:11] people oftentimes say the system is

[00:18:13] broken now the system’s not broken it’s

[00:18:15] it’s working as it’s designed we’re

[00:18:17] trying to break it every one of us is

[00:18:20] trying every single day to break this

[00:18:22] machine and Chip at it it’s hard it

[00:18:25] takes time it takes a lot of our energy

[00:18:28] but we’re doing it slowly but surely

[00:18:31] in the meantime

[00:18:33] and so we can fully dismantle this thing

[00:18:35] yeah people are going to continue to get

[00:18:37] swept up and have to take please because

[00:18:38] it’s

[00:18:40] it’s just the best position for them to

[00:18:44] be in even if we don’t agree with it

[00:18:46] hell they they may not agree but they

[00:18:48] may not have done anything wrong but

[00:18:52] I want to put you in a better chance of

[00:18:55] moving forward tomorrow

[00:18:56] than if we go to trial and lose

[00:18:59] because that’s a hard pill to swallow to

[00:19:01] go to trial and lose and you end up

[00:19:03] doing wartime

[00:19:06] that’s a very very tough pill to swallow

[00:19:09] so yeah that’s a common myth it’s not us

[00:19:12] it’s a system it’s a system

[00:19:14] intelligently designed to break our

[00:19:16] communities

[00:19:19] and you know it’s not lost on me that

[00:19:23] looking on someone

[00:19:26] because this

[00:19:28] podcast does this for a lot of young

[00:19:30] people they get to see people who look

[00:19:34] like them in a variety of fields and I I

[00:19:37] think Sean has given you enough

[00:19:39] encouragement and he’s addressed some of

[00:19:41] the myths up front that uh quote-unquote

[00:19:45] free lawyers public Pretenders are

[00:19:48] actually very competent

[00:19:51] are actually very competent

[00:19:54] um the Constitution

[00:19:56] affords you our services especially if

[00:20:00] you don’t have the funds

[00:20:02] um

[00:20:03] we we come into play because you should

[00:20:07] not be representing yourself when you

[00:20:10] are subject to up to a year in jail Etc

[00:20:13] you should have the representation of

[00:20:16] someone who is qualified even if that

[00:20:19] person comes at no cost uh to you

[00:20:23] um and then finally here’s what I’ll

[00:20:25] touch on I think you’ve addressed a lot

[00:20:27] and we could get into search stop and

[00:20:29] you know stop we can go wherever you

[00:20:32] want to take this I’m flexible let’s get

[00:20:35] it yeah yeah yeah for sure for sure but

[00:20:37] but I’ll address that we we do get a lot

[00:20:40] of good wins and you know in light of

[00:20:42] what the intro started off with

[00:20:46] a person comes to us with a case we are

[00:20:48] looking at whether the stock and the

[00:20:51] search was lawful

[00:20:54] um we’re looking at

[00:20:56] um

[00:20:57] speedy trial issues we’re looking at

[00:21:00] whether the charge itself as Sean

[00:21:03] indicated is overcharged whether all the

[00:21:06] elements are met there’s a lot that goes

[00:21:09] into every case but I’ll tell you one

[00:21:11] other thing we don’t become public

[00:21:14] defenders because we are trying to

[00:21:16] become district attorney there’s another

[00:21:19] myth I heard the other name

[00:21:21] oh we’re trying to become D.A is we’re

[00:21:24] working with the DA’s you know we’re in

[00:21:27] the same group we go out to drink

[00:21:28] together look that that

[00:21:31] kind of going back to that first one

[00:21:32] that first man that’s another one that

[00:21:34] like tinges up the soul a little bit nah

[00:21:37] man we’re not friends with the tdas but

[00:21:39] what we are is we’re collegial right

[00:21:43] at the end of the day

[00:21:45] at the state level

[00:21:47] let me back up a little bit even at the

[00:21:50] federal level

[00:21:51] there’s so much weight and power that

[00:21:55] the D.A has or that the prosecutor has

[00:21:57] that’s part of why the system is really

[00:22:01] messed up they have so much power we can

[00:22:04] get into whether or not they decide to

[00:22:06] even bring charges and just how that

[00:22:08] power Dynamic works out especially as it

[00:22:10] pertains to race but when you’re in the

[00:22:13] court battle

[00:22:14] but before you really even get to the

[00:22:18] judge and see the kind of power they

[00:22:20] wield you’re dealing with the prosecutor

[00:22:22] What charges are you bringing what

[00:22:25] offers are you making what evidence do

[00:22:28] you have when the evidence is getting

[00:22:29] turned over your case your ability to

[00:22:32] practice in this case is largely

[00:22:35] dependent upon the prosecutor and what

[00:22:38] they decide to do or not to do it’s so

[00:22:42] contingent on them so the idea that we

[00:22:44] because we’re friendly are working with

[00:22:46] them no we’re not in that sense we’re

[00:22:49] not trying to be buddy buddy and throw

[00:22:52] our person under the bus what we’re

[00:22:53] trying to do is hopefully get this

[00:22:56] prosecutor

[00:22:57] to a place and a space where they feel

[00:23:00] comfortable

[00:23:02] making the kind of offer if we’re going

[00:23:05] down the plea route that we want or

[00:23:08] making them feel comfortable that they

[00:23:10] give us the kind of information that

[00:23:12] makes us prepare for trial a little bit

[00:23:15] easier

[00:23:17] right because they can truly excuse my

[00:23:21] language make our life a living hell if

[00:23:23] they want to on every case

[00:23:25] so it’s not that I want to befriend them

[00:23:29] when I want to go out to drinks with

[00:23:30] them no my man I’m usually doing it for

[00:23:33] your benefit so they don’t hate me

[00:23:35] because last thing I need is for them to

[00:23:37] hate you and hate me because then

[00:23:39] nobody’s winning and I’ve done a great

[00:23:42] disservice to you I have to make sure

[00:23:44] that we can work across the aisle so

[00:23:46] that way they

[00:23:49] you know they do

[00:23:51] what I’m asking to do

[00:23:53] whether it’s no jail time whether it’s a

[00:23:55] certain plea whether it’s a program

[00:23:57] whether it’s writing a letter if we’re

[00:23:59] in federal court of mitigation on behalf

[00:24:01] of you know essentially you the client

[00:24:04] to the judge

[00:24:05] right whether it’s standing up in front

[00:24:07] of court and asking the judge for a

[00:24:10] particular sentence or to deviate from I

[00:24:13] guess the sentencing range or guidelines

[00:24:14] right if I’m going to ask them to do

[00:24:17] that

[00:24:18] they got to feel comfortable with me

[00:24:19] they gotta like me they gotta appreciate

[00:24:22] the hard work that I’m putting in

[00:24:23] so yeah I I’m sorry that it always seems

[00:24:28] like we’re we’re working with them and

[00:24:30] we’re expiring to be in their shoes but

[00:24:32] I I trust believe

[00:24:34] that is far from the case and in my

[00:24:37] years of practice

[00:24:38] I have never ever ever ever heard of a

[00:24:42] defense attorney turned prosecutor never

[00:24:45] heard of that I’m sure it exists but it

[00:24:48] ain’t exists in my world I’ve heard

[00:24:50] about plenty of prosecutors usually to

[00:24:52] make money coming over to be defense

[00:24:54] attorneys but I’ve never heard the other

[00:24:56] way around so so trust believe we are

[00:24:58] not trying to become District Attorneys

[00:25:00] there’s something about the way we think

[00:25:03] and the way we feel as defense attorneys

[00:25:05] that put us on that path in day one and

[00:25:09] we don’t go elsewhere

[00:25:10] once we had defense attorney we may do

[00:25:12] other types of law but we always defense

[00:25:14] attorneys in our hearts

[00:25:15] it just it doesn’t feel right going on

[00:25:18] the other side and I don’t think many of

[00:25:19] us could ever look ourselves in a mirror

[00:25:21] if we went on to the other side we can’t

[00:25:23] go from

[00:25:24] trying to keep everybody out of jail

[00:25:27] and trying to protect them to then

[00:25:29] trying to put people into jail it just

[00:25:31] doesn’t compete with our minds so yeah

[00:25:33] that that’s a common myth that’s one

[00:25:35] near and dear to my soul

[00:25:38] awesome man and you know I’m hoping at

[00:25:40] that end if if there is a young person

[00:25:43] who is thinking of law

[00:25:46] that they won’t remove that option from

[00:25:49] the table consider it if you are

[00:25:52] especially criminal work criminal

[00:25:54] defense work

[00:25:56] being a public defender is one of the

[00:25:58] best ways to get invaluable experience

[00:26:02] and the volume while it may seem

[00:26:04] overwhelming at times sometimes the the

[00:26:07] volume helps you to develop multitasking

[00:26:10] skills your negotiation

[00:26:13] and sometimes you’re seeing the habits

[00:26:16] of the district attorney you know in

[00:26:18] terms of what the facts are you know

[00:26:21] what to work with in terms of getting

[00:26:23] the offer or resolving the case in the

[00:26:26] best way for your clients so can I can I

[00:26:29] jump in on that point jump in on that

[00:26:30] man please look the skills that you

[00:26:33] learned from being a public defender is

[00:26:35] is they’re so invaluable right the

[00:26:38] confidence in which I operate in a

[00:26:40] day-to-day life now I feel like there’s

[00:26:42] nothing I can’t do because of what I

[00:26:44] learned so to your point yeah I had a

[00:26:46] bunch of cases and it drove me crazy but

[00:26:49] I learned how to handle all those cases

[00:26:51] so now when I have a few cases my time

[00:26:54] management skills are unbelievable at

[00:26:55] this point the fact that I had sweet

[00:26:57] cases and went to trials so often my

[00:27:00] court skills my ability to open and

[00:27:02] close my ability to cross examine

[00:27:04] Witnesses and get that information out

[00:27:06] is incredible my research skills is on

[00:27:09] point because all I did all I had to do

[00:27:11] and all I could do was research whether

[00:27:13] it’s Heat of the Moment in court on

[00:27:15] trial or whether I got like two days to

[00:27:18] prepare or just lunch time to prepare

[00:27:21] I could keep going all day about the

[00:27:24] skills in which we learn and in the

[00:27:26] moment you’re not thinking about that

[00:27:29] you’re just like damn I got more work to

[00:27:31] do and that’s your only focus but when

[00:27:34] you have a moment and you sit back and

[00:27:35] look at some of the years you spent

[00:27:37] being a public defender you realize like

[00:27:39] whoa like I’m pretty dope at this job in

[00:27:43] terms of just generally being a lawyer

[00:27:45] because of everything I had to do day in

[00:27:48] and day out as a public defender and I

[00:27:51] just kept building on that and building

[00:27:53] on that building on that

[00:27:54] we are really talented lawyers

[00:27:58] and we can do more things that other

[00:28:00] people can’t do we can write what the

[00:28:03] best known we can certainly talk with

[00:28:05] the best of them we have an amazing

[00:28:07] Court presence but we have the ability

[00:28:09] to connect with people because that’s

[00:28:11] what we did on a daily basis and we

[00:28:13] could do everything in between the

[00:28:15] skills are transferable to any other

[00:28:18] field of Law and I think it really does

[00:28:21] set us apart

[00:28:23] my partners at the firm when they were

[00:28:24] thinking about hiring people one of the

[00:28:27] reasons why they hired me is because I

[00:28:29] had those skills from being a public

[00:28:31] defender I got that core stuff covered I

[00:28:33] got the back off of stuff covered too

[00:28:35] like I have all those skills because I

[00:28:38] had to develop them in order to be a

[00:28:40] competent qualified attorney I had to

[00:28:43] have all of those skills and so I am

[00:28:46] thankful for being a public defender

[00:28:48] because it’s given me

[00:28:50] the the training to be where I’m at now

[00:28:53] and to continue to go where I’m going

[00:28:54] the experience and most importantly to

[00:28:57] sum it all up it’s given me the

[00:28:59] confidence

[00:29:01] there is nobody here on God’s green

[00:29:03] earth that I don’t think that I can go

[00:29:04] toe-to-toe with because of the skills

[00:29:06] I’ve learned I really think and I really

[00:29:09] believe in my own abilities thanks to

[00:29:12] being a public defender and I don’t know

[00:29:14] that I would be in the same position

[00:29:16] talking to you as confidently as I am if

[00:29:18] I wasn’t a public defender we have the

[00:29:21] best training period

[00:29:26] we’re gonna give them everything they

[00:29:28] need Sean

[00:29:29] um I think

[00:29:31] public defenders who listen will connect

[00:29:34] definitely yeah

[00:29:36] uh you touched on something though in

[00:29:38] the beginning about being in those

[00:29:40] spaces um yeah across the syndrome is

[00:29:43] real not only in uh the law school

[00:29:45] setting but in the workforce as well I

[00:29:49] want to take you back now to the law

[00:29:51] school setting

[00:29:53] um and here’s a while I asked this

[00:29:56] it is there’s

[00:29:59] and I’m sure if there’s a laundry list

[00:30:02] let me know as well what

[00:30:05] do you appreciate now looking back at

[00:30:11] your law school experience

[00:30:13] this way too black people there’s

[00:30:16] something you wish you had known before

[00:30:18] going into law school that is a part of

[00:30:21] your experience now that you wish you

[00:30:23] had known back then

[00:30:25] so there’s two two questions there I’ll

[00:30:27] answer the first one because I started

[00:30:29] to the thing that I appreciated most

[00:30:30] about my law school experience was black

[00:30:32] people

[00:30:33] my black colleagues there my my black

[00:30:36] teachers my black uh uh

[00:30:39] support staff

[00:30:42] that was a dope experience

[00:30:45] I don’t think I ever in my wildest

[00:30:47] dreams

[00:30:49] could have even thought that that would

[00:30:52] be my experience so you’re in this white

[00:30:54] space per usual right you know and I say

[00:30:57] per user because a lot of us went to

[00:30:59] suburbs we don’t go to suburbs you know

[00:31:01] we went to get our undergrad degree in a

[00:31:04] white space right a lot of our friends

[00:31:05] happen to be white

[00:31:07] and there’s nothing wrong with that but

[00:31:09] sometimes you lose that kind of

[00:31:10] connection you’re looking for right if

[00:31:13] you will you lose that sense of home a

[00:31:15] little bit you know and there’s

[00:31:17] something to be said when you’re around

[00:31:18] your your your brothers and sisters that

[00:31:21] you can just relate to they understand

[00:31:23] things

[00:31:24] on a different level on a different

[00:31:26] plane and they share your experiences

[00:31:29] when I got into law school and during my

[00:31:30] three years

[00:31:32] the the black suits when I say black

[00:31:34] that’s all encompassing people of color

[00:31:36] right we all get together we all want

[00:31:37] the same

[00:31:39] um we became like a family

[00:31:41] you know we’re studying together we’re

[00:31:43] going out for drinks and dinner together

[00:31:45] we’re all dancing together we are

[00:31:47] motivating each other we’re listening to

[00:31:49] each other we are healing each other we

[00:31:53] are holding each other accountable

[00:31:56] it was such a supportive family and I’m

[00:31:59] very lucky that I personally had that

[00:32:01] experience but that’s the thing that I

[00:32:03] most appreciative about law school is

[00:32:05] that you know you’re going through this

[00:32:06] Gauntlet that is just Law School

[00:32:08] you know you’re dealing with these very

[00:32:10] uncomfortable white spaces most of the

[00:32:12] time you’re one it’s not the only you

[00:32:15] know you’re the only person of color

[00:32:16] sometimes you’re one of them maybe two

[00:32:18] or three out of a class of a hundred

[00:32:21] um and that’s support for when things

[00:32:24] go down because that’s life

[00:32:27] was invaluable and to have those people

[00:32:30] to celebrate those small wins was you

[00:32:34] know again you can’t put a price on that

[00:32:37] I was so appreciative because it helps

[00:32:39] you

[00:32:40] in so many ways be able to navigate

[00:32:43] those three years and get through what

[00:32:47] is really a grueling process one test of

[00:32:50] skills and ability but also a test of

[00:32:52] endurance and so

[00:32:55] to you’re running a marathon

[00:32:58] that is called life but in in this in

[00:33:01] this time frame that we have life we

[00:33:04] decide to run this this three-year

[00:33:05] Sprint and it’s a Sprint it’s it’s fast

[00:33:08] it’s it’s it’s hard moving it takes a

[00:33:11] lot of energy and you need those people

[00:33:13] who are championing you who make you

[00:33:16] feel worth it who make you feel valued

[00:33:18] who who give you that energy boost if

[00:33:21] you will to keep going even when you

[00:33:23] don’t want to so I’m entirely

[00:33:26] appreciative of my team and I say team

[00:33:28] my family at law school for everything

[00:33:31] that they did for me and I hope I was

[00:33:34] able to in turn do my part for each one

[00:33:36] of them I think so and I hope one day

[00:33:38] that they can let me know that I did

[00:33:41] um you asked the second question in

[00:33:43] terms of what I wish I would have known

[00:33:46] laughs

[00:33:51] I guess

[00:33:54] that’s a tough question you know and I

[00:33:56] just want to take a moment to make sure

[00:33:57] that I again articulate it correctly

[00:34:00] because I have thought about this the

[00:34:03] most important thing that I’ve known now

[00:34:05] that I wish I would have known in law

[00:34:06] school

[00:34:08] and it deals with imposter syndrome

[00:34:11] is that it’s okay to be you

[00:34:16] it’s okay to walk how you walk

[00:34:19] think how you think and because we’re

[00:34:22] lawyers

[00:34:23] talk how you talk

[00:34:26] the fact that we get told

[00:34:29] we get chastised or criticized because

[00:34:31] we talk differently and I mean that both

[00:34:34] orally but also in our writing

[00:34:37] that can contribute to imposter syndrome

[00:34:39] that can make you feel less value or

[00:34:42] less worthy because this person that’s

[00:34:44] looking at your writing doesn’t

[00:34:46] necessarily agree with it

[00:34:47] the best thing that you know teachers

[00:34:51] advisors mentors can do

[00:34:53] is to not only reinforce and reinstill

[00:34:56] that a person can be and should be

[00:34:57] themselves but to make them or help them

[00:35:01] find their voice

[00:35:03] and let them communicate their voice in

[00:35:06] their ideas their way to the greater

[00:35:09] world

[00:35:10] that’s what I think I wish I would have

[00:35:12] known because here I was trying to

[00:35:16] go to my default I grew up in white

[00:35:18] spaces the safe play for me was always

[00:35:21] to talk White

[00:35:22] bright white think White

[00:35:25] and

[00:35:27] that was the right answer

[00:35:30] but I realized that’s not the right

[00:35:32] answer

[00:35:34] and that contributed to my own sense of

[00:35:36] imposter syndrome instead I can talk the

[00:35:40] way I talk and it can be just as good if

[00:35:43] not better than how these other folks

[00:35:46] walk

[00:35:48] talk and write so I think to me that is

[00:35:52] the most important lesson I’ve learned

[00:35:54] one of the most important lessons I’ve

[00:35:56] learned now and one of the most

[00:35:58] important lessons that I hope to

[00:36:00] articulate back to those in law school

[00:36:02] coming up after me that it’s okay to be

[00:36:05] you and in fact I want you to be you

[00:36:07] talk how you want to talk and you’re

[00:36:09] going to be just fine

[00:36:12] powerful man because I and sobering at

[00:36:15] the same time especially for me who

[00:36:17] speaks with a strong Jamaican accent you

[00:36:20] can I love it

[00:36:22] you can imagine the pressure I felt

[00:36:25] trying to just fit in man and it was

[00:36:28] um

[00:36:29] it was understated because it’s not

[00:36:32] conscious to you sometimes that you’re

[00:36:34] actually

[00:36:36] um trying to fit in in so many different

[00:36:38] spaces the other thing I also learned

[00:36:41] recently is um

[00:36:43] you know asserting dignity man

[00:36:46] because you’ve worked this hard you’ve

[00:36:48] gotten into a space where

[00:36:51] you’re wandering a lot of times if

[00:36:53] people feel you belong and some of them

[00:36:56] will state directly or indirectly that

[00:37:00] it’s some affirmative action thing Etc

[00:37:02] the school is just making an effort to

[00:37:05] become more diverse Etc and and you’re

[00:37:08] fighting against that battle as well and

[00:37:10] what comes with that sometimes

[00:37:12] is the subtle and not so subtle

[00:37:15] disrespect which I endured in law school

[00:37:18] that frame The Narrative for my court

[00:37:21] experiences when I thought okay

[00:37:25] um the judge is shouting unnecessarily

[00:37:27] at me but this is a part of what it

[00:37:30] means to work in the system and lately

[00:37:33] I’ve been pushing back you know the

[00:37:36] reality is folks are going to use

[00:37:39] whatever they can to justify their

[00:37:43] devaluing of us or their their

[00:37:46] dehumanization of us especially as it

[00:37:49] relates to this space but really in any

[00:37:52] space so it’s you went to this law

[00:37:55] school you don’t make this money you’re

[00:37:57] not at this firm you’re not this you’re

[00:37:59] not that like the list goes on it

[00:38:01] the sky’s gray and that’s why I can say

[00:38:04] what I’m saying to you right like they

[00:38:06] won’t use anything and everything to

[00:38:08] justify why we are somehow less than

[00:38:10] especially as lawyers than our white

[00:38:13] counterparts and the rally is

[00:38:16] first of all one a lot of these white

[00:38:17] folks have had it one of the most

[00:38:19] incredible starts in human history right

[00:38:22] off of our backs and so the idea that

[00:38:25] they then turn around say that you are

[00:38:26] somehow this affirmative action pick

[00:38:28] it’s like

[00:38:30] that’s it I it’s in order to you know

[00:38:33] level them playing fan just a little bit

[00:38:35] I maybe got this preferential treatment

[00:38:38] to get into school but I still had to

[00:38:39] perform

[00:38:40] it wasn’t like my test got added bonus

[00:38:43] because I checked off a box saying I’m

[00:38:44] black none of us got that so we took the

[00:38:48] same test as you don’t be mad because

[00:38:49] I’m in yes space and I’m dominating

[00:38:51] don’t get mad at me

[00:38:53] I’m just trying to level the playing

[00:38:55] field that is so unfairly plays in favor

[00:38:59] of you and I’m trying to open up a door

[00:39:02] so I can get through that otherwise you

[00:39:05] wouldn’t open for me and you got every

[00:39:07] other door closed so if the fact that I

[00:39:11] am an affirmative action you know

[00:39:13] student

[00:39:14] so be it that’s the only Advantage if

[00:39:18] you will that we have and that is not

[00:39:20] really an advantage it’s really leveling

[00:39:22] the playing field because I don’t have

[00:39:25] the same Head Start you have I don’t

[00:39:27] always have the same resources you have

[00:39:29] and I damn sure don’t have the

[00:39:31] connections you have I didn’t come from

[00:39:33] and like many of my brothers sisters we

[00:39:35] do not have lawyers in our family we are

[00:39:37] the first of our kind so the fact that

[00:39:40] we don’t have any doors open to us

[00:39:42] except for maybe this little doggy door

[00:39:46] at the bottom for which a lot of US

[00:39:48] enter through unfortunately

[00:39:51] that’s not an advantage that’s just

[00:39:53] trying to make things a little bit more

[00:39:55] fair but at the end of the day just like

[00:39:57] you we got to prove ourselves and we got

[00:39:59] to do better than you guys in order to

[00:40:02] justify our worth and our value which we

[00:40:04] know isn’t right but that is still a

[00:40:06] reality that we face

[00:40:07] so I I hate the fact that people take

[00:40:11] shots at us especially US public

[00:40:13] defenders especially as public defenders

[00:40:15] of color

[00:40:16] and somehow try to always justify that

[00:40:19] we are not as quality or as good or as

[00:40:23] worthy or as valued as some of our right

[00:40:26] counterparts when the reality is

[00:40:29] that person of color is really dope

[00:40:32] because they they they’re used to that

[00:40:35] work they’re used to having to prove

[00:40:36] themselves and they can and we do

[00:40:39] and so I just want people to keep that

[00:40:42] in mind that usually that person that

[00:40:44] person of color

[00:40:45] they’re usually 10 times better than

[00:40:48] their white counterparts because they’ve

[00:40:50] had to work so hard to be in that space

[00:40:53] and more importantly stay in that space

[00:40:56] that’s usually a dope person that you’re

[00:40:58] thinking about so

[00:41:00] I push back on that all the time and I’m

[00:41:02] glad you pushed back Ryan because we

[00:41:05] need more of that we need to stop taking

[00:41:09] that BS from people myself included at

[00:41:12] times

[00:41:13] yes we can’t push back every single time

[00:41:16] in every single space I get that right

[00:41:18] it’s it’s all about time and place but

[00:41:20] we need to start pushing back more

[00:41:23] because we deserve to be here and we’re

[00:41:25] gonna stay here so we need to make sure

[00:41:28] that we start making sure that we feel

[00:41:30] comfortable here and the people coming

[00:41:32] after us feel comfortable here

[00:41:34] so yeah it’s time for us to continue

[00:41:36] time for us to really start speaking out

[00:41:39] and cementing our place here

[00:41:41] and you’ve mentioned something also and

[00:41:44] you know Sean kudos to you man you’ve

[00:41:47] given us a lot of nuggets a lot of gems

[00:41:49] already uh there’s something you said

[00:41:51] that I don’t want to miss out on though

[00:41:53] the the cost of doing this not only

[00:41:56] emotionally financially and otherwise

[00:42:01] is there a caveat you would give to that

[00:42:05] young person of color who wants to enter

[00:42:07] into this field because

[00:42:09] so here’s the other thing that we often

[00:42:12] hear

[00:42:13] um when I being

[00:42:15] uh the first in our families Etc

[00:42:19] um you argue a lot you speak well you

[00:42:22] should become an attorney

[00:42:24] yeah what is there a caviar though that

[00:42:27] we should give

[00:42:28] to those who

[00:42:32] aren’t considering law as an option

[00:42:35] um

[00:42:36] and I I guess we could frame it this way

[00:42:38] what would you say to your 16 year old

[00:42:42] self

[00:42:43] considering all the career options out

[00:42:46] there yeah yeah oh yeah yeah

[00:42:49] um

[00:42:49] look it’s an investment it’s the hell of

[00:42:52] an investment mentally emotionally

[00:42:55] physically spiritually all the l y words

[00:42:58] right like it is truly an investment

[00:43:00] financially

[00:43:02] if you want to make this commitment

[00:43:05] you better be sure that this is what you

[00:43:06] want and another way for me to put is

[00:43:08] that you’ve got to be hungry for this

[00:43:10] because you will hit those moments in

[00:43:12] law school and certainly after law

[00:43:13] school where life happens and you hit

[00:43:16] that low point because that is life

[00:43:18] and what’s going to be your motivation

[00:43:20] then to get you up and go after this

[00:43:22] again

[00:43:23] because that low Point could last a day

[00:43:25] could last a week how it could last a

[00:43:27] month depending on how things are going

[00:43:28] in the rest of life and with that that

[00:43:30] space that you’re in what’s going to be

[00:43:32] your motivation to keep going you got to

[00:43:35] be hungry for this and if you don’t have

[00:43:38] that desire and then I don’t advise you

[00:43:41] to go this route doesn’t mean you can’t

[00:43:42] go there later it doesn’t mean things

[00:43:44] won’t change it’s just that if you won’t

[00:43:46] go after this go after this with the

[00:43:49] full of your soul

[00:43:51] because it’s hard it’s a challenge and

[00:43:55] it’s the best word I can use to describe

[00:43:58] it it can be very unrelenting

[00:44:01] these white folks you know they ain’t

[00:44:03] gonna give you a break hell some of our

[00:44:05] people ain’t gonna give you a break

[00:44:06] teachers ain’t gonna give you a pass the

[00:44:08] bar examing will give you passed these

[00:44:10] firms who are spending money on you

[00:44:12] ain’t gonna give you a pass you got to

[00:44:14] be hungry for this you got to be willing

[00:44:16] to to make sacrifices in order to make

[00:44:19] this work

[00:44:20] so

[00:44:22] understanding that there is a commitment

[00:44:25] that is unlike any other commitment that

[00:44:27] you’ve made in life

[00:44:28] to anyone else certainly to yourself

[00:44:32] if you’re going to go after it you got

[00:44:34] to understand that commitment and you

[00:44:36] got to be all in on that commitment the

[00:44:39] worst thing you can do is is go through

[00:44:41] this struggle be unhappy and then have

[00:44:44] those regrets

[00:44:46] I know there are some lawyers that do

[00:44:48] have those regrets they may not always

[00:44:49] voice it but they certainly do have it

[00:44:51] this is it’s not easy and you are

[00:44:54] balking up against the system and the

[00:44:56] status quo

[00:44:57] so if you don’t do that y’all come

[00:45:00] correct but you got to come ready for

[00:45:02] this fight and you got to be mentally

[00:45:04] emotionally spiritually prepared to do

[00:45:07] bad all day in and day out because

[00:45:08] unfortunately it is still a battle

[00:45:11] so yeah I would say to my 16 year old so

[00:45:14] are you sure

[00:45:16] is this what you really want

[00:45:18] and then I would have to go ask the

[00:45:19] million dollar question

[00:45:21] why and if you can answer that to

[00:45:25] yourself

[00:45:27] think you are right then I think you

[00:45:28] have your answer whether or not this is

[00:45:30] the right path but you got to be hungry

[00:45:31] for this

[00:45:33] because you know there are easier ways

[00:45:37] um to make a living

[00:45:38] um if your desire is to put in 20 years

[00:45:41] in an industry and then retire with a

[00:45:44] full pension

[00:45:47] um you would have to be very creative

[00:45:49] you’re if you’re going to use law to

[00:45:51] accomplish that purpose you know and now

[00:45:53] congratulations to you Sean uh now an

[00:45:56] associate at a prestigious Law Firm talk

[00:45:59] to us about

[00:46:01] yeah you know that Journey what led to

[00:46:05] the change and the shift in you know

[00:46:08] yeah

[00:46:10] the journey was arduous but rewarding

[00:46:15] and a lot of fun you know because I did

[00:46:17] start as a public defender I spent five

[00:46:18] and a half years as a public defender

[00:46:20] and I loved and hated every minute of it

[00:46:24] I love our clients I can’t stand our

[00:46:27] clients I love the work but it’s a lot

[00:46:30] of work it’s a lot of work a lot of

[00:46:33] cases

[00:46:34] but like I said earlier we learned so

[00:46:37] much I learned so much from so many

[00:46:39] incredible lawyers from just some of the

[00:46:41] experiences I had some of the failures

[00:46:43] I’ve had so the journey has been hard

[00:46:46] but ever so rewarding

[00:46:49] um just real quick public defenders need

[00:46:51] to get paid more

[00:46:52] I’m just going to plug that in right now

[00:46:54] if you’re going to overwork them at

[00:46:56] least make them fairly compensate and

[00:46:57] put them on par with DA’s at the very

[00:46:59] least but they should be getting paid

[00:47:01] more because the odds are stacked

[00:47:02] against them and the work that we do and

[00:47:04] I say weeks I’m always going to be a

[00:47:06] public defender you can’t compare it and

[00:47:09] they protect a lot of our freedoms First

[00:47:11] Amendment

[00:47:12] Fourth Amendment

[00:47:14] Fifth Amendment like the lowest goes on

[00:47:16] the readings that we enjoy public

[00:47:18] defenders protect that for the most part

[00:47:20] um and so I I got to a point this year

[00:47:24] where I started thinking about getting

[00:47:26] another job because

[00:47:29] being a public defender in a way for me

[00:47:31] for me got too difficult and not in a

[00:47:36] healthy way I was getting very short

[00:47:38] with clients I was getting very

[00:47:40] aggravated I was I was unhappy and it

[00:47:43] was because the caseload was so high

[00:47:45] that I could not give the time

[00:47:49] that was necessary that for each case

[00:47:52] and for each person I didn’t have that

[00:47:54] time anymore and I just felt like I

[00:47:57] wasn’t my best self

[00:47:59] and so I wanted to remove myself before

[00:48:01] I became jaded before I became angry

[00:48:04] before I became a shell of who I really

[00:48:07] am and want to be

[00:48:08] and so I thought about just moving to

[00:48:10] another sister uh Public Defense

[00:48:13] organization just to kind of give me a

[00:48:16] little reprieve I would start over new

[00:48:17] with a fresh caseload and I would slowly

[00:48:20] build myself up so that would give me

[00:48:22] some breathing room and um they had

[00:48:25] smaller case sizes so I think that would

[00:48:28] have helped

[00:48:30] um

[00:48:31] and I would have been around more people

[00:48:33] of color and I would have been in a

[00:48:35] space that I would have felt more

[00:48:36] comfortable with

[00:48:38] um more understanding more accepting so

[00:48:41] that for me was also better

[00:48:43] but

[00:48:44] a former legal aid attorney

[00:48:46] who used to work in the same Manhattan

[00:48:48] office I used to work in we we miss each

[00:48:50] other by a few years

[00:48:52] he had started a law firm with another

[00:48:55] public defender

[00:48:56] from another sister organization

[00:48:59] and these two brothers got together

[00:49:00] understanding that look we can do the

[00:49:02] business just as well as anybody else

[00:49:04] and we can do it while having a safe

[00:49:08] secure environment and positive

[00:49:10] environment that will allow people to

[00:49:12] grow and we can make it people of color

[00:49:15] and so

[00:49:16] word got around that I was looking for a

[00:49:19] new job these Partners heard about it

[00:49:21] and we had a real conversation about why

[00:49:24] I should go work for them and why that

[00:49:28] would be the right move and why I would

[00:49:30] want to work for them

[00:49:31] in that conversation

[00:49:34] I think and maybe let me use a stronger

[00:49:37] word I believe that years from now when

[00:49:40] I look back that will be probably the

[00:49:44] best conversation I’ve ever had

[00:49:46] and it might be the one that really

[00:49:48] changes the trajectory of life I believe

[00:49:52] that I will have that conversation

[00:49:53] hopefully I’ll be back on this this

[00:49:55] platform here with you to say that but

[00:49:59] I got to a place where

[00:50:01] I had the skills now and that was part

[00:50:04] of the conversation the partners and I

[00:50:05] had it’s like bro you have the skills

[00:50:07] how many trials did you did I was like

[00:50:09] you know 10 plus yeah most people don’t

[00:50:12] do 10 plus you did two in the last like

[00:50:14] three months how many cases did you have

[00:50:17] you know 85 when I left how many cases

[00:50:19] have you done in the last five years I

[00:50:21] don’t know thousands so they think about

[00:50:23] what you have done for those cases how

[00:50:26] many times did you write how many times

[00:50:27] were you up in court how many times did

[00:50:29] you research an issue

[00:50:30] you’re ready for this next step

[00:50:33] and so

[00:50:34] the journey unbeknownst to me because

[00:50:37] you know we can’t always see the

[00:50:38] stairwell in the darkness right

[00:50:41] I’ve been building towards this moment

[00:50:44] and I didn’t even realize this

[00:50:47] so it got to a point where just you know

[00:50:50] don’t fight the universe is what I say

[00:50:52] to myself the Universe Online is like

[00:50:55] here’s an opportunity to be in a safe

[00:50:56] space in a positive space for growth

[00:50:59] with a bunch of people that understand

[00:51:01] what it’s like to have been in your

[00:51:03] shoes because they were there not too

[00:51:04] long ago

[00:51:05] and the skills that you’ve been working

[00:51:08] on that you didn’t even take a second to

[00:51:10] appreciate and value and and speak your

[00:51:14] own gratitudes to bring it back to the

[00:51:15] beginning of the show

[00:51:17] they’ve all LED you here so you’re in a

[00:51:20] good space and you’re you’re at the

[00:51:23] right place at the right time to move

[00:51:24] forward so the journey has one that’s

[00:51:26] been

[00:51:27] filled with ups and downs incredibly

[00:51:30] hard but incredibly rewarding

[00:51:32] and it’s just nice to take a moment even

[00:51:35] on this platform in this moment to just

[00:51:37] be like

[00:51:38] yeah all that hard work paid off

[00:51:40] all those late nights paid off all that

[00:51:42] sacrifice paid off and it put me in a

[00:51:45] position I’m in now to take full

[00:51:47] advantage of that and keep growing as an

[00:51:49] attorney and keep growing as Sean Farrow

[00:51:51] and move forward so

[00:51:54] it’s not easy on this path but it’s

[00:51:58] worth it

[00:52:04] awesome man

[00:52:06] Sean I’m gonna ask you to

[00:52:08] um share

[00:52:09] and you know let me say I’m proud I am

[00:52:12] of all your small wins leading up to

[00:52:14] where you are now thank you I’m very

[00:52:17] happy for you man

[00:52:18] um

[00:52:19] please share

[00:52:21] all your handles and let us know if you

[00:52:23] have anything upcoming in terms of

[00:52:24] workshops Etc that you want people to

[00:52:27] tap into as well yeah so you can find me

[00:52:30] on Twitter and on Instagram at

[00:52:32] underscore Sean Farrow Esq that is my

[00:52:37] Twitter handle and my Ig you can also

[00:52:39] check me out I’m going to send a link to

[00:52:41] Ryan but you can also check me out I got

[00:52:43] four Town Hall discussions coming up in

[00:52:46] October the first one is this October

[00:52:48] October 5th we’re going to talk about

[00:52:50] cannabis in the city the impact of

[00:52:52] legalization licensing and social equity

[00:52:55] in the Cannabis industry uh October 12th

[00:52:58] is going to be on the importance of

[00:53:00] serving on a jury selection so many

[00:53:02] times people color especially here in

[00:53:04] the city we try to get ourselves out of

[00:53:07] serving on a jury duty but it’s so so

[00:53:09] important because so many of our

[00:53:11] brothers and sisters are usually the

[00:53:12] defendants so it’s important to have our

[00:53:15] voices heard in those jury deliberations

[00:53:17] rooms so October 12th the importance

[00:53:19] serving on a jury that brother who’s

[00:53:22] presenting is a dope brother named will

[00:53:25] Summit from the Vera Institute so be

[00:53:27] sure to check them out October 19th

[00:53:29] we’re going to talk about Barrel form

[00:53:31] the good the bad the ugly available form

[00:53:34] and why it’s necessary so check that out

[00:53:36] and the last one we’re doing this month

[00:53:37] October 25th is going to be on

[00:53:39] immigration we know a lot of our

[00:53:40] brothers and sisters from Central

[00:53:42] Southern America are being bus sometimes

[00:53:45] flowing up here

[00:53:47] um and it’s a very dire situation but we

[00:53:49] need to take care of them so learn all

[00:53:51] about what’s going on with immigration

[00:53:52] here in the city and how we can help and

[00:53:54] how we’re going to move forward here so

[00:53:56] that’s where you can find me at all this

[00:53:57] month and if you ever need anything

[00:53:59] Hamilton Clark we’re a dope Law Firm

[00:54:02] we’re all people of color it’s a I love

[00:54:05] the work we do we do anything from civil

[00:54:07] to criminal and everything in between

[00:54:08] and we definitely do cannabis law

[00:54:11] but please be sure to check us out

[00:54:14] that’s all I got

[00:54:16] awesome man and I’ll put it in the notes

[00:54:19] Sean’s so very proud of you and your

[00:54:21] journeyman and I’ll be sure to put in

[00:54:24] the ways people can connect and um I’ll

[00:54:27] likely be putting this out within the

[00:54:28] next few days so hopefully

[00:54:31] um I will add one of the Flyers as well

[00:54:33] with the upcoming uh Workshop that

[00:54:36] you’re doing as well Sean Farrow

[00:54:39] um associate at Hamilton clerk uh public

[00:54:43] defender

[00:54:44] um put a lot of years in

[00:54:46] um Advocate

[00:54:48] um a volunteer with um young people a

[00:54:52] tutor as well doing a lot for the

[00:54:55] community

[00:54:56] um we’re so proud of your journey man

[00:54:58] thank you so much for being a guest on

[00:55:00] the Water World podcast thank you

[00:55:02] brother for having me it’s been a

[00:55:03] pleasure Brian always good to see you

[00:55:05] brother thank you I love what you’re

[00:55:08] doing thanks for creating your space

[00:55:09] brother

[00:55:10] appreciate it man thanks and blessings

[00:55:12] on your journey man and we’ll be in

[00:55:14] touch again soon likewise we’ll glad to

[00:55:16] have you back to share more on on your

[00:55:19] journey lovely thank you brother

[00:55:26] foreign